today, america's spending $2.5 trillion. we have seen an explosion of health care costs under this current system. and one can debate all the various proposals and changes. the current system is so broken. >> that's why at the beginning of this process, you saw a lot of stakeholders in health care debate, the insurance companies, the pharmaceutical companies, the american medical association saying they were going to be part of this reform process. do you get the sense that's going to hold? >> insureds are peeling off. i think most of them are holding. >> you know better than us, that's a significant difference from '93 in '94. that was not the case in '94, if we were going through this august in those years, you would have had a different situation entirely. the other thing, the health care industry, not but the business community that are still in this game. >> walmart. >> walmart, exactly. >> not small business? >> no, not small business. i think that's true. small business is the problem for the clinton administration. a